Cam Clark, Ontario's Chief Negotiator in KI/Ardoch Talks Under Investigation

MAY 27, 2008 MINISTRY OF ABORIGINAL AFFAIRS
ESTIMATES COMMITTEE
Mr. Howard Hampton: Okay, good.
Can I ask this? Mr. Cam Clark was the provincial negotiator, on behalf of the government, negotiating with Kitchenuhmaykoosib Inninuwug First Nation. Is that correct?
Ms. Lori Sterling: Yes, he was hired by the provincial government to work on that—
Mr. Howard Hampton: Can I ask, what was the total cost, all in, for Mr. Clark and his staff and associates in terms of the negotiations with Kitchenuhmaykoosib Inninuwug? Could I ask for that figure?
Ms. Lori Sterling: Yes. I’ll have to get back to you just to confirm it, but of course.
Mr. Howard Hampton: Okay, but there is a figure.
Ms. Lori Sterling: There is a figure.
Mr. Howard Hampton: And it’s the all-in figure.
Hon. Michael Bryant: If that’s what you’re looking for.
Mr. Howard Hampton: Good. I understand Mr. Cam Clark was paid on behalf of the provincial government to negotiate with Ardoch Algonquin First Nation as well. Is that correct?
Ms. Lori Sterling: That’s correct.
Mr. Howard Hampton: Could I get the all-in figure that was paid to Mr. Cam Clark and his associates in terms of the negotiations with Ardoch Algonquin First Nation.
Ms. Lori Sterling: My understanding is that we paid Cam Clark. I’m not aware of any supplemental payments, but I will confirm that—
Mr. Howard Hampton: Okay. I just want the all-in figure.
Ms. Lori Sterling: That’s correct.
Mr. Howard Hampton: Could I ask, what is the total cost of negotiations with Kitchenuhmaykoosib Inninuwug since the start of the Platinex dispute? Do you have that figure or can you get that figure?
Hon. Michael Bryant: Obviously, if there’s a figure that exists, we will get it for you—the all-in. I don’t know the extent to which we can create something that doesn’t exist, obviously, but we’ll find that. I can really only, right now, at this time—although if there’s more information, I’ll provide it to Mr. Hampton. I can say that since the time in which I was sworn in—and the member’s asking about negotiation efforts—the time spent by myself and my office’s work, which involved a very significant investment of time and a certain amount of travel as well to KI by myself and others within the ministry, will not be reflected in that number that the member’s looking for with respect to the negotiator himself.
Mr. Howard Hampton: We’ll get to your expenses later.
Hon. Michael Bryant: I’m doing my best here, Chair, to answer the question. I want to say that the questions and the—
Mr. Howard Hampton: It’s okay, Chair.
Interjection.
Mr. Howard Hampton: Yes, I think I’ve got a good enough answer.
Hon. Michael Bryant: The tenor of the question—Chair, could I just finish? I was trying to make a point here.
The Chair (Mr. Tim Hudak): I think Mr. Hampton is satisfied with your answer. I’ll go to him for his next question.
Mr. Howard Hampton: I’d like to ask the total cost of negotiations with Ardoch Algonquin First Nation since the commencement of that dispute over uranium mining in that First Nation’s traditional territory as well. If you want to account for the minister’s travel or ministry staff travel separately, that’s fine. I’m more interested in the cost to the ministry.
Hon. Michael Bryant: Got you.
Ms. Lori Sterling: I can tell you right now that not all the costs that were incurred were born by the Ministry of Aboriginal Affairs itself. All we can do at this point is provide ...
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Ms. Lori Sterling: I can tell you right now that not all the costs that were incurred were borne by the Ministry of Aboriginal Affairs itself. So all we can do at this point is provide you with our own costs. But there very well may be other ministries that put in a significant amount of money.
Mr. Howard Hampton: If you could indicate what other estimates I should go to and ask questions, I’d be pleased. You don’t have to tell me the amounts; just tell me where I should go.
Ms. Lori Sterling: Okay, I’ll do that
Mr. Howard Hampton: Thanks. On March 6, the minister flew from Toronto to Thunder Bay. I believe you met briefly with NAN chiefs, held a press conference and released a memorandum of understanding, which was reported in the Canadian Press on March 6 as a template for resolving conflicts between First Nations and mineral exploration companies. Could I ask that that memorandum of understanding be tabled for the committee?
Hon. Michael Bryant: Firstly, I should say I recall that after looking at it for about five minutes, Chief Morris and council said this isn’t what they’re looking for. I’m not sure within the context of estimates—it’s absolutely a fair question in the context of question period. I’ll certainly look to the Chair as to whether or not we go into disclosure, if you like, of information that falls outside of the estimates process. I’m not sure from an estimates committee perspective what the member is looking for.
The Chair (Mr. Tim Hudak): We’ll table that. I’ll review it and then make a ruling.
Mr. Howard Hampton: I understand that there were several versions and drafts of that memorandum of understanding. Is that correct?
Hon. Michael Bryant: I think I’m going to have to ask the Chair to make a ruling on that one too. I’ll just say, not surprisingly, there is, from conception to proposal, a significant amount of work that goes into any document. The basic approach was to try and find—because this was in the days coming up close to the hearing and I couldn’t tell if we were close or not close. At times when I was speaking with Councillor Sam Mckay, the relationship was very affable. We wanted to try and find a resolution that was satisfactory to him and his community; the same with Chief Morris. This was an attempt really to honour the effort that the chief and council were making.
Mr. Howard Hampton: I’m satisfied.
The Chair (Mr. Tim Hudak): Okay, move on.
Mr. Howard Hampton: I wonder if I could just ask this question: Were versions of the memorandum of understanding exchanged with a representative or representatives of KI First Nation?
Hon. Michael Bryant: I’d have to ask the chief and council, who I just spoke to a little while ago.
Mr. Howard Hampton: Okay, I can do that.
I think what the figures are going to show is that a fair amount of money has been expended by the ministry with respect to Kitchenuhmaykoosib Inninuwug First Nation and the Platinex dispute. One of the realities is that the Minister of Mines, under section 35 of the Mining Act, could write a letter to the mining claims recorder withdrawing the areas of land that are subject to the dispute from mining claims and mining exploration. There is provision for that under section 35 of the Mining Act.
Could I ask this: Have you asked the Minister of Mines to do that? If we’re talking here about expenditures of money of the ministry, it seems to me one way of addressing some of the issues would be for you to write to the Minister of Mines and ask, “Use section 35 to take these areas of land which are under dispute out of mining exploration and mining claims